really that everyone's trying to jam too much into single sentences?
You don't have to do that! But almost all these participial phrase problems are happening (I diagnose) because we're trying to put a paragraph's worth of information into a single sentence.
A sentence should be part of a larger element of meaning called "the paragraph". Paragraphs gather the information, evidence, support, description, action that is around one thought or idea and puts it in a nice indented passage. If it gets more than 5-7 lines, we can even make two paragraphs with some transition at the start of the second paragraph.
But within a paragraph, you can group sentences, and the sentences can be short or long, have one important piece of information or three. If a sentence is too long or too complex or doesn't feel conversational to you or feels out of voice or you can't write around (talk about a long sentence :) a grammatical error or you think you didn't get something conveyed right, just try breaking it into two. For example:
Sometimes a sentence is too long or too complex or doesn't feel conversational to you or feels out of voice or you can't write around (talk about a long sentence :) a grammatical error or you think you didn't get something conveyed right. So just try breaking it into two.
So everyone go back to the offending PPP sentence and try this:
PPP in one sentence (now a sentence, not a phrase, natch), and add whatever emotion, action, subject, information will help it be a more meaningful sentence.
Main clause in another sentence, and add, etc.
What have you lost? Is one element too vague, too wispy to justify a sentence? What can you do to make it more important? Don't forget voice additives and transitions. A "Well," or "In fact," can do a lot to make a shorter sentence feel more important as a conclusion of sorts.
But I really think this is the diagnosis-- some of these sentences should be TWO sentences. See if that's true for you.
Alicia
Alicia
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63 comments:
Alicia, Alicia:
This so works for me!:)
Can't thank-you enough for tag-teaming us...especially Jami! She was a struggle to get down on the mat, wasn't she? But I have to hand it to you - you persevered.;)
I won a gold medal in writer wrangling. :(
Alicia
Hey,
Writer wrangling? I like the sound of that alliteration!
Alicia, I think that's it. Maybe the penance for this one is to make people go read some Hemingway? LOL
Murphy,
I'm difficult??? Ha! My PPPs can beat up your PPPs any day, missy. LOL!
Alicia,
As someone whose nemesis is word count, I completely agree that we often try to cram too many things into a sentence. And I'll admit that I use the few remaining leading advervial PPPs left in my WIP to summarize. But I've taken your words to heart and made sure that either I'm summarizing something unimportant (scene setting) or I'm reminding the reader of important things that they had previously read and I just don't want to redundantly repeat the whole thing.
So, Thank You! I can see the improvement in my work.
Jami G.
Jami? You wanna bet? :D
I felt confidant I didn't use many PPPs - until I checked the novel I'm scheduled to send to my crit group Sept. 1.
Now I'm desperately cutting out / reworking a MILLION PPPs! They breed like rabbits on fertility hormones!
Murphy,
All my PPPs - even my trailing ones - now are lean, mean, fighting machines:
- We are here for a purpose, Sir!
- We express simultaneous action, Sir!
- We are a state and not a condition, Sir!
Do you really want to mess with them? :)
Jami G.
Confession: I didn't do the exercise the other day. Bad Dave!
Instead, I went through my 78,000 word unfinished WIP and found all my introductory PPPs. There were 5 of them. I decided I didn't like one, so now there are 4, and the sruvivors are looking very frightened... LOL
Hey Dave,
Maybe your frightened survivors - should hook up with Jami's. I've got a visual and it's her PPPs shaking in their proverbial textboots...
And Jami? The to answer your question, no. And as an aside - my condolences to your husband. That poor man. If you get this riled over grammar?...Well, nuff said about where I was going with that thought.;)
Murphy
Textboots? Murphy, you're a riot! I wasn't going to comment because like Dave, I didn't do the exercise. I thought I didn't need to. Wrong.:(
Murphy,
You got me... :)
Maybe there's a reason I never talk about whether or not I even have a husband. :)
Jami G.
Oh, and given some of the posts Alicia and Teresa have had about Oxford commas and semicolons, I think I'm in pretty good company around here with my obsessing over grammar and words. :)
But the PPPs I have left aren't shaking in their textboots (great phrase!), because they all know exactly why they're there. They're all happy about this certainty and feel validated. They may even throw a "graduation" party when I'm not looking. LOL!
Jami G.
All my sentences shake in their textboots, because even though they know why they're there, they know they're not perfect, and could be replaced or eliminated at any time. Keeps 'em on their toes.
Dave,
Yes, well, my sentences just think they're perfect. Their confidence ensures that they're doing their best. So most of them don't see it coming when I chop them to pieces. Hmm, between that and the many unforeseen twists in my WIP, I'm starting to think I'm a bit mean and really enjoy catching people off guard. LOL!
Same goal, different methods... :)
Jami G.
Shame on you Em! So, let me get this straight. You read the posts and the comments and you didn't even try it?
$#@& (I sputter) that's like paying to go to the movies and sitting with your back to the screen.
(insert me shaking my head with disappointment here - now, throw in a patented *sigh*)
You know, if you were one of my kids, at this point in the dressing down - I’d be saying something like: “You do realize that you’ve only cheated yourself.”;)
Murphy
Ah, right, the 'self esteem' approach vs. the 'We're number two, but we try harder' approach. Whatever works, right? LOL
Dave and Jami? After reading your comments about how you’d treat your PPPs - I can safely say, that you two are mean...keeps ‘em on their toes, indeed! Why I bet, that if there were a hanging in town you'd both be fixing the victuals to bring for a picnic. Meanies! And you know what they say, right? Meanies never prosper. Remember that the next time you have your finger over the delete button...:D
I imagine a less talented prophet coming up with this:
The earth having been formless and the spirit of God having hovered over the water and saying, "let there be light," there was light and it was good.
Yup. I think you might have nailed the problem.
The correct word is 'ruthless', not 'mean'. Besides, I'm compassionate about it. I mean, I give mine severance and retirement benefits, not to mention health care!
Oh, this is hysterical! No sooner did I post that I have my reasons for not talking about whether or not I have a husband, I get people speculating in my inbox about said reasons... Gay? Divorced? Murdered my husband for one too many grammatical errors and am now living under an assumed name to escape the law? (that last one sounds like a good premise for a novel, actually!) :)
But the truth of the matter is that, like Nathalie Gray commented in the http://edittorrent.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-going-gets-tough.html post, Jami G. doesn't talk about personal life because she doesn't have one. She is the persona for my writing, period. So I won't confirm or deny anything because they are all impossible. (Well, I will deny the murder one, just because of the whole long-arm-of-the-law thing.)
You will never see me blog about my personal family life because it does not exist in Jami G.'s world. And once you bring up your personal life, people are allowed to comment, question, or speculate on it. And I'm just not interested in that.
Thanks for the laugh though... :)
Jami G.
There are two problems here, I think: we're trying to put too much into one sentence, yes (I'm obviously not innocent, as I learned in my edit a couple months ago--I think those four sentences are now seven or eight).
But I think the underlying problem is that we're trying too hard to be writerly.
Trying to be writerly leads to overwriting much of the time, and to sentences that are too hard to understand and follow.
(I can't believe we've generated this much conversation on grammatical principles. Who says grammar's dead?)
- We are here for a purpose, Sir!
- We express simultaneous action, Sir!
- We are a state and not a condition, Sir!
Dave, Jami has you beat! I am permanently saving this. It sums it up nicely for me in short, very succint sentences that I totally comprehend.
I have been known to ruthlessly cut out whol chapters badly written, and even whole subplots! No line is safe from me. But, like Jami G.'s words, they stand strong in their textboots, believing they are guarding the gates of literacy greatness.
Forward and Onward. Get those PPPs that don't make the grade!
Alicia,
Writer Wrangling should be an Olympic Sport because you deserve a gold medal for out wrangling Jami G. and Murphy with one fell swoop!
"The earth having been formless and the spirit of God having hovered over the water and saying, "let there be light," there was light and it was good."
I like it!
Leona, I saw a state trooper on the highway pull over two speeders at one time, and I learned a lot from that about wrangling a deux. :)
Of course, he had a gun, and all I have is this damned red pen....
Alicia
Alicia says "...all I have is this damned red pen..."?
Since my biggest experience with your red pen is my four little sentences that are now closer to four paragraphs (as soon as I get my laptop back to its normal self I will share), my experience is not as extensive as others - ie Jami and Murphy.
However, I think your pen is quite capable of doing death-rate damage. Many a word has been slashed by your mighty red pen. The poor things quake in their textbooks at hearing they are being offered up to Alicia's altor of words.
Jami or Murphy? Did your mouth open incredulously, as if you were a bass fish on the prowl for the next meal, at her comment?
"The pen is mightier than sword."
OH, btw em and Murphy, I have a confession to make. I didn't do the exercise either. I wanted to. I really did. But I swear there are nothing but textbooks where I'm staying right now!
I will do it as soon as I've moved and buy my own books or get mine sent to me. OOOOH, I just had an idea... wonder how many Red Sage author stories made it out with a PPP or two in it?
Maybe this is a challenge worthy of those who own the new secret's novels?
Jenny said:
I imagine a less talented prophet coming up with this:
The earth having been formless and the spirit of God having hovered over the water and saying, "let there be light," there was light and it was good.
Well, yeah... But God didn't have to worry about word count. :)
Jami G.
TIME OUT!
Jami, you say:
Well, yeah... But God didn't have to worry about word count. :)
Jami, are you comparing yourself to God? I'm just asking (insert innocent face and big eyes here) It sure did sound like it. But now that I recall the nature of the subject, (word count) I figure I’ll cut you some slack on this one - because um, last time I checked -one of us didn't have to worry about that. Oh yeah, that would be me.:D I'm kind of disciplined that way.;) But hey, if you’d like, the next time I’m whispering to the man up stairs I’ll put in a good word for ya? It might translate into a few hundred words shaved off your current WIP.;) Too bad you didn’t have the adjective problem I had – by weeding them out of my story I went from an epic novel to a novella. (Insert shrug) I don’t mind. Now when I print it out it won’t be so heavy to carry down to the mailbox. (Hehehe)
Dave? No. The correct word is, as I said: MEAN. If you were RUTHLESS you’d have no PPPs - because you would’ve been KIND enough to put all of them out of their misery.:D
Leona? I can’t believe it. You have a whole pile of homework ahead of you.
Alicia, you say:
Of course, he had a gun, and all I have is this damned red pen....
As a writer I’m more afraid of the pen...:D
Leona, I'm sure many Red Sage stories have PPPs (including ones I've edited). We really don't do a lot of rewriting as editors. But writers can take charge of their own prose and not expect editors to do it for them. Or to them. :)
It's a delicate process-- editing without too much tinkering. A writer who doesn't pose that dilemma for the editor is a beloved one!
Alicia
Murphy said: Jami, are you comparing yourself to God?
Err, that would be a big ol' N-O. :) I was merely pointing out that those of us that do have to worry about word count, do tend to use certain tools to trim stuff where we can. Hence, using PPPs to summarize unimportant things, like scene setting.
I'm not doing it nearly as often as I used to, however. And virtually all of my intro PPPs are now adverbial. But, sometimes, I still use them. Just one of many tools.
Jami G.
Realizing that the woman had spoken much too slowly, Sally checked the time.
I dunno, this one doesn't seem miserable enough to retire yet. Is it really 'mean' to keep it shaking in its textboots?
Dave,
Oh, that sucker would be outta-there in my WIP. LOL!
Seriously, if can think of a way to fix an intro PPP without changing the meaning of the sentence, then I fix it. The only intro ones I still have, which is probably less than 4 in 50K words, are ones where fixing it would destroy the meaning, or that I can't figure out how to fix them without overloading the sentence (and it doesn't deserve two sentences).
Is there a reason to not change it to:
When she realized that the woman had spoken much too slowly, Sally checked the time.
Jami G.
This has been a fascinating discussion for me. I've been away from the keyboard pretty much all day, but now I am going to sit down and look for some more PPPs to excise from my MS.
Realizing, thinking, feeling... not actions. If you're set on a PPP, how about flipping it, so that the realization comes last? Well, that wouldn't work, probably, but what do those two things have to do with each other.
1. The woman speaks too slowly.
2. Sally realizes it.
Okay, those go together, but why not do this in narrative:
The woman gave the directions, and Sally realized she spoke much too slowly.
She must be a zombie. What then? I mean, what did Sally "realize"? "She talks too slow," is actually just an observation. A realization would be "she's on drugs" or "she's a zombie."
Then she checks her watch. Is this connected to her realization? Does she want to see how much time has elapsed since the woman started talking? If not-- it should be in another sentence, I think.
Shake shake shake, shake your textbooty....
Alicia
That's the problem with taking this stuff out of context. The woman is talking too slowly because Sally unconsciously accelerated her time sense. She's a genetic enhancement experiment, and that's one of her useful little tweaks, one she's not supposed to show off to the 'Normals'. This is a little oopsie for her, but she noticed just in time to avoid talking too fast to be understood. The point of the larger passage is to show this feature, its advantages for her, and her concern about revealing it. Checking the time is where I show that she just did a whole lot of analysis in only 15 seconds, and that she doesn't have the control over her enhancements that she thinks she should have, if she's going to keep them hidden from the people around her.
At this point, I think if I'm going to muck around with this sentence, I really need to rewrite the whole passage (again!), so I think I'll just take your ideas under advisement for now and come back to it after I get the rest of the draft finished.
Dave said: That's the problem with taking this stuff out of context.
I feel your pain. :) Many of my "target practice" sentences suffered from the same misinterpretation. My sentences were often the final one of a whole paragraph going into all those details people wanted to see. But out of context, people could only assume they weren't there.
Just like any critique group, take the useful comments and ignore the rest. :)
Jami G.
No, you don't ignore it, Jami. Not when I say it. I want it to plague your dark nights and have you sitting up and staring into the gloom and thinking, "Maybe I should try an appositive instead!"
Evil Alicia
*bowing* Yes, of course, oh Great and Exalted One!
If I mention once more how in just the last 2 days, I went from believing that stupid teacher when he told me that intro PPPs are a good way to vary sentence beginnings, to now having less than 4 intro PPPs in 50K words (I actually can't remember any that I kept, but just in case...), Murphy will accuse me of brown-nosing again. :) Not to mention that I got rid of about 2/3 of my trailing ones too. Truthfully, I still have some intro PPP-type sentences with an adverbial beginning "After...", etc. But even those are hacked significantly.
You have cured me! Hallelujah!
Jami G.
(now if only I could remember what the heck an appositive was... Hey! I survived a public-school education in the murder capital of the world, you think the teachers ever had time to teach???)
An appositive is just a phrase after a noun that tells more about the noun:
Joan of Arc, my number one favorite martyr,....
The important thing for me is, as I keep telling students, the appositive is set off front and back by commas-- Noun, appositive, rest of sentence.
Students usually put in the first comma and not the second, and it's sort of like coitus interruptus. Well, sort of like that.
Alicia
Yes, now I remember you mentioning that before. Thank you, Guru!
Jami G.
Alicia:
With that shake, shake, shake I'm getting a KC and the Sunshine Band thing grooving in my head. Thanks, it's been awhile! But does this mean I have to wear the textboots that my PPPs were shaking in before their unfortunate demise? I'm kind of superstitious - so I'm hoping not.;)
And, Jami? Do you need a tissue to wipe the end of that nose? Just Murphy wondering...:D
Murphy, I finished going through everything and it wasn't good.
:( I should have listened to you earlier. You were right about all of it and I thought I was going to be mad, but I'm not. :) Thanks! I really mean that.
Thanks, as well, to Alicia and Theresa, for doing these posts. Sometimes it's just easier to think these things don't apply to you and then you get a push from someone who really doesn't have to push you at all :) and you see that it has been helpful.
You guys are all great! I love coming here everyday. I get great information and when Murph's around, a laugh and sometimes a push and right now that's just what I need.:)
Now I'm off to get rid of my PPP's.
Wish me luck.
Em
I'm proud of you Em!
Leona? How about you?
And Dave? I know it seems like I'm riding you - but there are no excuses, right? How about:
Her slow and distorted words made Sally check her time.
Or
When it registered that the woman spoke too slowly, Sally checked her time.
Or
The slow and drawn-out dialogue of the woman made Sally check her time.
That’s all I’m saying.
Well, not really because...
I can’t believe that all of you are going to let A slide on the coitus interruptus comment.
Come on (no pun intended) really? No one else got that? It was funny. I’m smiling Alicia :D- you really do give great visuals!
Murphy
Murphy,
Yes, of course I got Alicia's comment, but your unintended pun made it even better. :)
Jami G.
"Sometimes it's just easier to think these things don't apply to you and then you get a push from someone who really doesn't have to push you at all :) and you see that it has been helpful."
Methinks there's a story there.... Do tell!
A
"I can’t believe that all of you are going to let A slide on the coitus interruptus comment. "
I know. I was hoping for some dirty jokes at least!
Alicia
Hi Alicia!
The story is simple and I'm going to be honest. I didn't at first get the whole PPP post. I read it a couple of times but didn't help. Then Murphy posted the comment directly to me and I felt bad so I emailed her to explain I didn't do the exercise because I didn't understand it. I thought she was going to let me off with something nice and she'd understand. But no. She got mad instead and told me that what I was doing was worse than being lazy I was being stupid (those were her words. I couldn't believe it!) she said I was because I knew I didn't understand all of it but I didn't ask for help. So, after she said a few more things and now I believe her when she says she not funny all the time. Really. She wasn't funny yesterday in that email. But then she told me to send over any page of my project and she'd look at and see if there was a PPP in that page that we could work on together. That's what she did for me yesterday. There were three just on that one page and by the time she helped me clean all of them up I got it. I spent the next few hours amazed because I saw my work with different eyes. And this wouldn't have happened if I didn't follow this blog and you and Theresa didn't have some really generous people who want to help when they can. From now on I'm asking when I need help because I really prefer it when Murph's funny!:)
Seriously Murph, thanks so much for yesterday. I needed that kick in the bum.;)
Em
I forgot to say that I corrected so many PPP's yesterday my eyes were dizzy! But my words read better now.:) :)
Em
I almost spurted milk on Alicia's coitus interruptus remark.
Jami - I have extra baby wipes I can spare if the tissue doesn't work :)
Murphy, I've gone through two old MS I have (my current WIP's in laptop that I have to wait until pay day to fix :) on my computer and I haven't found a single PPP in three pages! I would be very excited except it's pointed out two serious issues.
I've already seen these issues and have worked on them in recent MS but it shows how far I have to go. As you have probably seen, I write LOOOOONG sentences. That one's easy to fix as I can leave it for the editing process. I simply delete the comma and 'and' or 'but', add the period and capitalize the sentence.
But by far the worst problem I'm having is too much passive voice. As I've read over things, I realized that in trying to change to current, I really screwed up some tenses. I am not looking forward to fixing them all. I will have to rest happy that there are fewer PPPs for me to worry about than I had expected :)
Holy crap, Em! Now you're really freaking me out. Are you sure you're not one of my children, you sure do sound like them. They have a tendency to confuse my brutal honesty with me being mad. Trust me on this, I wasn't mad. Frustrated, yes - mad? Nope.
ASK when you don't understand something for cripes sakes! Just ask. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE has something to learn, so ask when you don't get something, okay? Have you ever counted up how many questions Jami asks in one post? It's exhausting :D (sorry J) - but she's learning, right?:) So Em, good job yesterday. And just as a little aside note, you've never seen/heard me mad...not yet. (But there's a wicked inflection in my tone, as I said those last two words...like maybe the next time you don't ask I will be mad.)
Alicia:
I was bummed about no dirty jokes too. *sigh* imagine me sitting with shoulders slumped until I remember one of my favorites! Now imagine my eyes lighting up like the favorite child in a dysfunctional household on Christmas morning (had to qualify that as only screwed up parents would spoil one child over another, right?) So, for the sake of argument and the visual I’m going for here - Let’s assume that I got the brand new bike while my older brother opens his lone present of thrift store underwear gear. So I’m really happy and rubbing my hands together as I say:
Here’s a dirty one for you: (hehehe)
One ovary yells to the other ovary:
Hey, is it moving day already?
No, not today - why do you ask?
Because there’s two nuts at the front door trying to shove and organ through it!
Cracks me up!
Murphy
Murphy, Murphy, Murphy
I'm going to tell that one to my husband! I don't tell jokes well, and after your no-pun-intended "Come on" I didn't dare. I was laughing too hard to think past it. :)
Sigh. Now I have to get to work fixing my serious writing issues and outlining a short film I'm writing...
Keep the laughs coming. I read this as often as possible. When I miss a day, I feel like an addict who didn't get their fix. Grumpy, sore, mean, and anticipation to see what I'm missing is only the beginning. Read on and practice on, Em.
so word verification = menesses
at first I thought it said menses
Boy, I need to catch up! Definitely something I struggle with. Why are the best lessons posted over a weekend?!
What happened? I go camping for three days and come back and find ~ 150 posts!
Personally, I'm still trying to mind my manners and not ask for details on Alicia's coitus interruptus experience(s).
Dave, I once was in high school. :) Nuff said.
Alicia
Well, here it is, Everyone, the All-In-One-Fix-It Guide for correcting PPPs (Version 1.0):
First, the paragraph from hell (5 PPPs):
Taking the baby wipe offered by Leona, Jami G. wiped off her nose. She sighed, fluttering her hand in front of her face. Struggling to contain herself, she took several deep breaths. She waved her hand, indicating the throne. "Can I be first in line to greet The Exalted One?" she asked, knowing she owed the woman a debt of gratitude. Not waiting for an answer, she threw herself onto the floor in front of the throne. The other bloggers looked on in amusement, laughing at her display.
Ways to fix PPPs:
1) Add a time indicator at the beginning of the sentence (After, While, Before, When, Once, etc.), Alicia suggests authors also add a pronoun and change the *ing to *ed rather than just leaving it as *ing:
After she took the baby wipe offered by Leona, Jami G. wiped off her nose.
2) Change the comma to an "and" and change the *ing to an *ed:
She sighed and fluttered her hand in front of her face.
3) Add pronoun to the beginning of sentence, change the *ing to an *ed and change the comma/pronoun to an "and":
She struggled to contain herself and took several deep breaths.
4) Change the comma to a "to" and remove the *ing:
She waved her hand to indicate the throne.
5) Rewrite the sentence to remove unnecessary elements and concentrate on the "point" of the sentence (such as removing an unnecessary dialogue tag that was only there to give you a place to hang the PPP):
She knew she owed the woman a debt of gratitude. "Can I be first in line to greet The Exalted One?"
6) Split into two sentences:
She didn't wait for an answer. She threw herself onto the floor in front of the throne.
7) Pull out a prepositional phrase to lead off with:
With a laugh, the other bloggers looked on in amusement at her display.
(Of course, all this assumes that the original words were good and just need an edit rather than a full rewrite because we'd crammed too much into one sentence.)
Does anyone have any other tips to share?
Jami G.
(Yeah...I don't take offense easily... LOL!)
Sorry, I'd obviously added more sentences to that as I went along. It has 7 PPPs.
Jami G.
Jami G.
That was hilarious :) thanks for the easy fixes. I'll start my own pages called edittorents easy fixes.
Keep it up!
Leona,
Yeah, I'm in the middle of a massive editing job on my whole WIP with all the stuff that I've learned here. I call it my "edittorrent rewrite". :)
It's a frustratingly huge amount of work, but I've got to admit that it's making things so much better. I think this PPP thing is the secret to having that "fresh", "crisp" voice editors/agents are always talking about. I hacked away 2/3 of my previously surviving trailing PPPs last night.
Obviously, my list above isn't anything that we didn't already know. But sometimes I just find it easier to have a list to consciously refer to when I'm staring at a sentence thinking there's no way I can fix it. :)
Thanks!
Jami G.
(And really, since I'm not submitting to Red Sage, brown-nosing would be pointless... LOL!)
Jami, no one REALLY believes you're brown nosing LOL. Although, since I have submitted to Red Sage, I've tried to keep my want to gush to a bare minimum. This site has helped me so much that it can be hard to hold back.
good luck with the major reivisions in progress!
Here's the old lurker. Jami, I like your fix the ppp lesson - good stuff.
I've finally gotten around to fixing my little ppp sentence. It has now grown to three paragraphs, and I'm not sure if my MC is finished with letting her feelings out yet. Guess I would be emotional too if I found myself in a town that changes overnight.
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