tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post97528583155939171..comments2023-09-05T12:51:25.656-05:00Comments on edittorrent: Top Ten Reasons the editor doesn't love what your critique group lovesEdittorrenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-68954565691499645062013-06-02T14:22:31.930-05:002013-06-02T14:22:31.930-05:00T'was a brilliant post, after all. As Bill Mun...T'was a brilliant post, after all. As Bill Munny said to Little Bill, in the movie Unforgiven, "Deserves has nothing to do with it." Richard Suttonhttp://www.sailletales.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-86234734822500516132012-11-29T12:53:57.751-06:002012-11-29T12:53:57.751-06:00Crip, some writers just want affirmation, I guess,...Crip, some writers just want affirmation, I guess, not actual critique. Seems a waste of time after the first year or so!<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-18536988108724052742012-11-18T17:33:47.813-06:002012-11-18T17:33:47.813-06:00Hi Alice,
I too would like to thank you for the sp...Hi Alice,<br />I too would like to thank you for the spot on article and would like to add that I would differ greatly with those who would mislead people into believing that the online forums might offer a better chance.<br /><br />I've been there and done that. Pardon my grammar. These are all prone to fail out of one major flaw and that is their anonymity. Forums end up with a core of people who pat each other on the back and tend to exclude and squash the newer poster who might try to bring in the voice of reason. They also tend to create their own writing rules. And since many are not established authors I've no idea where those rules come from.<br /><br />A person is much better off with a group they can be face to face with and recognize when there is a true Svengali in the bunch.<br /><br />That said I agree that it's a mistake to believe that any group has brought you to the place where you believe everything you have at the end is the tightest neatest most editorially correct version you could have. <br /><br />It will be just that much more disappointing when you find out you have 12 months of editing to do to make this piece work.<br />cripple mode corehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00399520702314573048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-81196522721568710312012-09-30T23:23:02.048-05:002012-09-30T23:23:02.048-05:00Enjoyed reading this - even if your first post was...Enjoyed reading this - even if your first post was even more brilliant! I'm not in a crit group for all these reasons, although I miss the idea of the comradeship. It's geographically also an impossibility for me.<br /><br />It's taken ages to gather a couple of trusted crit partners - they receive the MS once when it is finished and then never again. Precisely for all those reasons you state.<br /><br />The MS is also read (after working in the crit partner's comments) by a handful of its target audience - the target group aren't thinking about the marketing but they are the final consumer and that is vital feedback.<br /><br />Great post.Scribble Orcahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04490476452360049224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-72312760465534265212011-10-23T17:02:04.158-05:002011-10-23T17:02:04.158-05:00I fell through your rabbit hole via another writer...I fell through your rabbit hole via another writer on Bookrix telling yet another writer to check you out. <br /><br />The other writer has English as a second language and God knows having it as a first language doesn't guarantee total understanding, so one can see where a second string of linguistics can be daunting.<br /><br />At any rate, you have made me laugh reading several of your blogs, so I will be a regular visitor.matriarchShenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07684058360125931809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-9656024274391571412011-09-11T12:15:09.324-05:002011-09-11T12:15:09.324-05:00No offense but way to scare a (hopefully) future a...No offense but way to scare a (hopefully) future author!! This has me scared out of my wits because nowadays it's all supernatural fiction but I'm only fourteen and it will probably be out of the market before I even finish my novel (if ever) let alone find the guts to send it in!!!!Naminéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05874218700061551096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-17589312036424069162011-05-13T17:23:10.158-05:002011-05-13T17:23:10.158-05:00This really helped me alot! I am only 14 and i am ...This really helped me alot! I am only 14 and i am starting to write longer stories. I am a year 9 but my writing is year 11 stuff. <br />I am still playing around with plots.<br />Your advice is brilliant and it helped me understand more about publishing. <br />Thnx!Chloe Quinnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-65674800827349414232011-05-05T12:24:16.206-05:002011-05-05T12:24:16.206-05:00Great post -- although I just know the original wa...Great post -- although I just know the original was even more brilliant! :-)<br /><br />I'm hoping the converse is true -- that an editor likes what my critique group doesn't. (I know that doesn't sound possible, but...)<br /><br />I've recently joined a general fiction critique group -- the long-standing members are working on an MG historical, a comic novel, a memoir, a graphic novel, a dystopian novel of misogyny, and a thriller. I'm their first romance writer.<br /><br />Last week I read them the first ten pages of my WIP -- not a rough draft (it's a finalist in a contest) but I figured it was smart to start with the opening so they can meet my protagonists and I can get a sense of how a straight-up contemporary romance novel will be received.<br /><br />I got some great feedback about places I need to be clearer, so I'm a happy clam. But as for it being a romance? The reviews were mixed. What I think I saw was a fair number of preconceptions about the genre that didn't necessarily track with what I'd written.<br /><br />At least an editor who is interested in publishing contemporary romance novels should be used to the genre. (That's what I'm hoping.)<br /><br />In the meantime, I will definitely squeeze all the value I can from the critique group without worrying about converting them to the romance genre.Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-43626967513053854272011-03-26T09:49:24.207-05:002011-03-26T09:49:24.207-05:00Critique groups are only useful if they involve bo...Critique groups are only useful if they involve bottles of bourbon and no critiques. People who write for a living use other smart people who editor for a living. I always have. BUT MAYBE I'M CRAZY.epichttp://www.epicblackcar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-34323696257579006372011-02-08T08:03:34.645-06:002011-02-08T08:03:34.645-06:00Point #1 is so true (and hilarious!) -- who wouldn...Point #1 is so true (and hilarious!) -- who wouldn't love it?Amandahttp://amandaswrinkledpages.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-27327853832889822412010-12-20T17:03:50.123-06:002010-12-20T17:03:50.123-06:00great post.great post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-43030709279990166062010-11-14T11:22:04.399-06:002010-11-14T11:22:04.399-06:00Hi, Alicia, I saw your post and wanted to comment ...Hi, Alicia, I saw your post and wanted to comment that as far as <i>in person</i> critique groups go, you comments are spot on. I feel a bit biased about the list from the perspective of <i>online</i> critique groups and think there are some significant differences. <br /><br />(I'm biased in that I, er, created the first critique group on the web 15 years ago, <a href="http://critique.org" rel="nofollow">www.Critters.org</a> , and which I've just expanded to a ton of other genres, so I'd have to be labeled pretty "pro" workshop. :) But I also run the preditors&editors voting poll that you won, so hopefully that makes up for it -- and congrats!) :)<br /><br />Taking your list, items 10, 9, 7, 6, 4, & 2 are all problems an online critique group can avoid -- primarily because the larger size brings in a mix of readers who both have seen your work and ones who haven't, plus the lack of personal Svengali influence over people you've never met and can't see. But I certainly agree no critique group can know details or quirks that are in a specific editor's brain (alas).<br /><br />As for John's additions (hi John!), #1 is again the Svengali thing, and not relevant on-line. #2 I would debate: Online reader comments might not say specifically "this sucks," but you can intuit that it isn't ready from the range of responses; and a lack of major problems from the peanut gallery can be taken as a sign that "it's ready," if you read between the lines. I'd also dispute that it's a bad thing to be forced to have to find something to say about a piece: Unless it's a shoo-in award winner for "best ever written," every piece can probably be improved. #3, about the small details, while it's true editors buy stories with those kinds of problems in them, they also may tend to find such problems an easy reason for rejection. Tweaking Pascal's wager, one might think thus: If I have such problems and they might or might not cause rejection, shouldn't I be better off without them? And online groups with a wide variety of readers neutralizes the impact of the one-horse action-tag/etc. reviewer -- who also loses <i>their</i> Svengali powers online.<br /><br />Anyway, just wanted to toss out the meme that online critique groups don't face the same issues as in-person ones. (They probably have their own different list!) :)<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Andrew BurtAndrew Burthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115208160503088421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-43665539111633060312010-11-14T10:40:58.555-06:002010-11-14T10:40:58.555-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andrew Burthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115208160503088421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-16616683671145499552010-10-24T11:44:08.848-05:002010-10-24T11:44:08.848-05:00Great advice all around! There have been times my ...Great advice all around! There have been times my editor/agent hated something my critique partners love, and also times one of them adored something my CPs weren't too sure about.<br /><br />TawnaTAWNA FENSKEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468819219529035563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-82026000535108733382010-10-22T12:16:28.302-05:002010-10-22T12:16:28.302-05:00Fantastic list. Important stuff.
John Barnes'...Fantastic list. Important stuff. <br /><br />John Barnes' additions are good too. <br /><br />I'd also add that your critique group only hears a chapter or so at a time. You may write great scenes but your overall story arc may be weak.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-931703790739884202010-09-22T12:57:59.412-05:002010-09-22T12:57:59.412-05:00One of the best things you can do for yourself is ...One of the best things you can do for yourself is to learn to edit your own work. <br /><br />I had a mentor who was an editor, and she taught me many things about editing. I was the queen of repeating the same information over and over. Eeeks!Sandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01843816981385732033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-9724208078348881012010-04-28T14:15:35.861-05:002010-04-28T14:15:35.861-05:00Great points. I was quite happy to be able to ment...Great points. I was quite happy to be able to mentally check off each thing as something my group does NOT have a problem with. We started out 10 years ago as unpublished, aspiring writers. Now we have over two dozen books and many awards between us.<br /><br />The right group can make all the difference.Annette Lyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493583432919249814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-26884689791217725322010-04-14T09:40:15.571-05:002010-04-14T09:40:15.571-05:00John Barnes! I quote you all the time. No, really,...John Barnes! I quote you all the time. No, really, about theater and the need for structure in drama. <br /><br /><br />Squee!<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-16126665016106391782010-01-23T18:47:13.404-06:002010-01-23T18:47:13.404-06:00Those are all good; as a writer with 20+ books and...Those are all good; as a writer with 20+ books and a variety of editorial experience, I'd say the list could be three times as long and there would still be important reasons for the problem left off. <br /><br />So a few candidate additions: <br /><br />1) Most of us are better salespeople than we realize, especially if we only have to warm up and never have to close. Over time we bring people around to our point of view. So if there's something dreadful you do that you love doing (in your fiction! not necessarily in your life!), and that you wish there was more of in your reading ... your critiques of other people's stories, your conversation, everything will gradually sell your group on that as a fictional value. Eventually you'll be getting your own ideas back but with the authority of the outsider. But when you step outside that concealed loop, the editor will look and say, "Why is there a buffalo on every other page?"<br /><br />2) Critique groups essentially require people to come up with things to say -- preferably helpful things. That means there are two comments about the manuscript always out of order: THIS SUCKS and IT'S READY. You have to be really bad to elicit the former and I'm not sure anyone can be brilliant enough to elicit the latter from a critique group. So your intent rarely focuses on avoiding the one and getting the other -- but those are actually the two decisions that an editor is most likely to make. So a critique group subtly teaches you not to seek exactly the feedback that's available from editors. It's like the problem beginning tennis players have when they rally all the time and never play for a point -- they get the habit of trying to get a response (put the ball where their partners can hit it), rather than trying to win (put it where they can't possibly hit it). Gradually your group teaches you not to go for the win or fight not to lose.<br /><br />3) Also because people go looking for things to say, over time many critiquers develop far too much ability to find something or other so that they'll always have something to say. "You could replace this said with an action tag." "Some of the information in this paragraph is redundant." "This is told when it could be shown." "Your pronoun references are confusing." Any of those can be useful to know, but some people become experts at spotting that problem so that they always have something to say, and once you've got the action tag/redundant/show-tell/pronoun wizard in your group, you will eventually be putting a great deal of effort into avoiding their stock comment -- and editors buy stories that have all those (and a thousand other) common problems all the time. Your focus, again, is pulled to getting from "already good" to "excellent" in some common area, when what you most need to work on is some area that no one in your critique group has a bug about, that needs to move from "feeble" to "adequate."<br /><br />Three is probably plenty ...John Barneshttp://tinyurl.com/JohnBarnesAmazonProfilenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-83980039319100567662010-01-16T21:54:16.694-06:002010-01-16T21:54:16.694-06:00This reminds me of all the reasons why I want to h...This reminds me of all the reasons why I want to have a good critique group *and* a good editor. :-)<br /><br />Great post!Gossip Cowgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12606755973767030017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-69960916348805796042009-11-29T15:48:52.341-06:002009-11-29T15:48:52.341-06:00Great post and very informative. You are right in...Great post and very informative. You are right in that critique group have probably seen the whole process go forward, discussed this and that character with you. As such, they have a lot more information to work off of when forming an opinion. Thanks for an excellent post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-57421850849451037692009-11-29T13:34:32.424-06:002009-11-29T13:34:32.424-06:00You see Simon, this is her idea of less than brill...You see Simon, this is her idea of less than brilliant. It's a lot to live up to :D All the more reason to keep writing!Leonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11786326364037397675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-23872689008560444672009-11-29T10:20:27.133-06:002009-11-29T10:20:27.133-06:00I enjoyed this one.I enjoyed this one.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703292678697973295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-11017479991436116432009-11-29T09:34:48.015-06:002009-11-29T09:34:48.015-06:00Precious and twee?! -I had to stop myself from squ...Precious and twee?! -I had to stop myself from squeeing, "She used TWEE!" and scaring the bird off it's perch. <br /><br />Awesome post.Eva Galehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08834856467514439544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-3339861733707678792009-11-29T06:50:20.916-06:002009-11-29T06:50:20.916-06:00Excellent points, particularly #9. When I was in ...Excellent points, particularly #9. When I was in a critique group, we had this one guy who was a great writer of the words. Most of the members lover what he wrote. I kept looking at the big picture of the story, because I knew that's what the agents and editors look for. And he had--no kidding--70K and had yet to start any story. It was a collection of scenes. Well, written scenes, but no story. I was the only one who commented on it--again and again. He chose to ignore me because everyone else was giving such great comments that I must be wrong. Sigh ...Linda Maye Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07203020058437093901noreply@blogger.com