tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post4604655887326364032..comments2023-09-05T12:51:25.656-05:00Comments on edittorrent: A Piggyback Post: When Should They Meet?Edittorrenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-35864363026149356662010-09-29T16:19:24.792-05:002010-09-29T16:19:24.792-05:00this one is brillinat-okra farming? hummanah? I lo...this one is brillinat-okra farming? hummanah? I love it. Yes, the explanation, too.Eva Galehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08834856467514439544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-18827180561509356772010-09-24T07:41:31.146-05:002010-09-24T07:41:31.146-05:00Oh, now I know what I've been missing the last...Oh, now I know what I've been missing the last month or so -following the inspiring advice you and Alicia provide. <br /><br />The okra farm really works! Gotta make it black and white for the lesson to sink in with me, lol.<br /><br />BTW - have you seen the latest BBC production of Emma? Talk about when the hero should meet the heroine ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-13027572686295801012010-09-20T13:32:41.469-05:002010-09-20T13:32:41.469-05:00Thanks so much, Theresa! Good to know that it can ...Thanks so much, Theresa! Good to know that it can work, and the difference!<br /><br />(Totally agree on the contest judges thing! I'm with you, JT—even though I've now won a contest, I still don't like them.)Jordanhttp://JordanMcCollum.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-70419075884642740372010-09-20T00:25:32.452-05:002010-09-20T00:25:32.452-05:00ZOMG that was hilarious! You had me at okra farm. ...ZOMG that was hilarious! You had me at okra farm. Okay, not really. I ran across your blog by chance and will be browsing the archives whenever I have free time.<br /><br />Thanks for the laugh and the great examples!<br /><br />JennJennifer Josephhttp://www.jenniferxjoseph.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-42057430201371120822010-09-19T13:29:11.284-05:002010-09-19T13:29:11.284-05:00"IMO, the new will scenario works if the new ..."IMO, the new will scenario works if the new will forms the external conflict and leads to the romantic conflict. (If she is the new beneficiary, for example, this would work.)"<br />~ Theresa<br /><br />Which is exactly what the heroine's function would be the beneficiary, that is). Okay I totally get what you're saying now. Makes crystal clear sense to me. It's the interpretation by the writers that seems off. Okay. Cool.<br /><br />Oh, and this?<br /><br />Ah ha! Okay this answers the question/confusion I was getting. :) Thank you, Theresa!<br /><br />"@JT I really, really wish people would stop listening to contest judges. But that's a whole 'nother rant."<br />~ Theresa<br /><br />Lordy, too true. I'm not a contest girl. Not really and I always thought I was strange because I seem to be in the majority on that one. I've done the Golden Heart and recently entered a few contests (like, 2) because I'm dabbling in a new sub genre and have been curious to see what people think. But on a whole, the experience has been mixed and wind up thinking wtf? and doing what I want anyway. LOL. Nobody can ever agree on anything. One judge says one thing, one just says another. One likes one thing, one hates it. One scores it high, the other tanks it. Seems all it does is confuse you.<br /><br />Anyway, going back to Jordan's example and Theresa's answer... so there's a difference being drawn here between needless backstory and setup vs. plot purposes of setting external conflict and initiating the romantic conflict. THAT makes this much, much clearer. So TY to both of you for those examples and explanations. Very much appreciated.<br /><br />JTJulie Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880895598847092028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-91286242357258715362010-09-19T11:14:58.318-05:002010-09-19T11:14:58.318-05:00@Jordan, Your first two scenes as described accomp...@Jordan, Your first two scenes as described accomplish two plot purposes: they set the external conflict and initiate the romantic conflict. Structurally, this is fine -- that is, they work as described, but I can't tell if they work as written without seeing the actual writing. It's entirely possible that "meet early" feedback is an attempt to overcome some other problem in the text. <br /><br />The okra set-up doesn't work because, first, the opening bits aren't scenes, and second, they do a whole lot of wrong things that damage the impact of the real scene when at last we reach it.<br /><br />TEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-85265859892635172022010-09-19T11:08:10.142-05:002010-09-19T11:08:10.142-05:00@JT I really, really wish people would stop listen...@JT I really, really wish people would stop listening to contest judges. But that's a whole 'nother rant.<br /><br />IMO, the new will scenario works if the new will forms the external conflict and leads to the romantic conflict. (If she is the new beneficiary, for example, this would work.) <br /><br />TEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-9136690944890736582010-09-19T10:55:22.628-05:002010-09-19T10:55:22.628-05:00@Jessica Lei, Yes, "show don't tell"...@Jessica Lei, Yes, "show don't tell" comes into play here. But sometimes we get beautifully rendered opening scenes - actual scenes - that are still the wrong scenes. <br /><br />TEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-91538019716553927492010-09-19T10:06:39.332-05:002010-09-19T10:06:39.332-05:00Great follow-up post, thank you. Your example at ...Great follow-up post, thank you. Your example at the end really illustrated the importance of getting to the action - and how to get there.Jenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06220239624983013968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-33536776848675825092010-09-18T23:56:40.967-05:002010-09-18T23:56:40.967-05:00There ya go, what Jordan said! LOL. Good example...There ya go, what Jordan said! LOL. Good example of what I'm trying to say, Jordan. TY!<br /><br />JTJulie Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880895598847092028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-83490878665753170782010-09-18T22:50:28.093-05:002010-09-18T22:50:28.093-05:00Different question: why does the okra set up not w...Different question: <em>why</em> does the okra set up not work? Because an okra allergy (or other internal barrier to love) is extraneous and difficult to illustrate without a.) dropping it in there completely unnecessarily (This is Jim. Distrusts all women named Marie.), b.) making it really obvious that this is either set up or the author is an idiot, or c.) both?<br /><br />I mean, it's obvious that this example doesn't work.... Okay, I can't think of a hypothetical, so I'll use a real example.<br /><br />Scene 1 (actually, page one, line one): Priest is murdered. We're in the parish secretary's head.<br /><br />Scene 2: FBI agent gets final approval from archbishop to pose as late priest's replacement.<br /><br />Scene 3 (back to secretary): They meet. He's handsome. I mean, totally off-limits. But still hot.<br /><br />This way, we do set up the conflict before it actually starts. Before, I didn't have scene 2, and readers didn't find out the priest wasn't really a priest until they'd already met him as a priest. It was too confusing. I think this way works (I've won a contest with it, anyway, and the previous version without scene 2 only confused people). Does that fall under the same category as our okrazample? If not, how is it different?<br /><br />Oh, this reminds me of another issue. I had some feedback once on a first chapter that the characters should have dreams and aspirations. That's great advice, but if we're trying to "engage," as you put it, how much can we really stuff in the first 3000 words?Jordanhttp://JordanMcCollum.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-31485863658559704052010-09-18T22:44:59.689-05:002010-09-18T22:44:59.689-05:00Introducing the story conflict as soon as possible...Introducing the story conflict as soon as possible is totally important, ITA, after all, that's what propels everything forward and keeps people turning the page. It just seems like (and this stems more from my comments at the RU than anything here) feedback on chapters and contest feedback from readers/other unpublished writers is taking that "have to meet right away" advice and almost making it become a.... you can't include ANYTHING about the characters *before* the instant they meet or that's backstory or unnecessary "setup."<br /><br />I've seen books where hero and heroine do meet almost right away (a page or two into a story or even page 1) but I've seen tons, too, where your introduces to the heroine, introduced to the hero, then they meet (usually still in chapter 1) but it seems now like the popular comment for that is "your characters meet too late."<br /><br />So I think I'm trying to find a mental balance between what the advice actually IS vs. what it's being interpreted as meaning, if that makes sense. :)<br /><br />JTJulie Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880895598847092028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-47573567146237972882010-09-18T22:36:17.628-05:002010-09-18T22:36:17.628-05:00JT, the trick is to do it really well. :) I had a ...JT, the trick is to do it really well. :) I had a book where the hero and heroine didn't meet until page 65 (life was slower in the 90s) and I like the way it opens (lots of action). But I do suspect that it doesn't fulfill what it promises in the open, that it'll be an adventure novel.<br /><br />I think if you don't get the story conflict going quick, you have to keep the reader's interest without the story conflict, and that took more skill than I had. It really would have made a good heist book,though. :)<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-4185177245280764012010-09-18T20:46:07.654-05:002010-09-18T20:46:07.654-05:00Thank God this topic is being discussed! Thank yo...Thank God this topic is being discussed! Thank you, thank you! And all this from one itty question on first meets. LOL.<br /><br />I totally agree with column. I do. In fact following this advice has, I believe, fixed a problem with a story opening that I've been fighting with for months now (I've walked away from the story for months and revised it 4 times). I'm no editor but I've read a ton of stories with bad openings. Boring openings. Openings that do nothing, say nothing, tell you everything before the story actually (really) starts. I've done some of those bad openings myself. I think one of the most important things mentioned in the column is "...undercutting conflicts in advance." Part the clouds, release the doves, let the sun shine in YES!<br /><br />I don't want to know if a character was in the hospital back in 1993. I don't need to know her entire back history before the two characters meet. Start the frelling story. <br /><br /><i>However</i>.<br /><br />My problem/question always pops up when the author ISN'T using their opening like this. It's not full of backstory and they're not telling you about the dog the hero had when he was 8 and how he (the hero, not the dog) went off to college to study woodworking and then sawed off his thumb, cutting that career short before returning to his home town 15 years later to finally meet the heroine at the car wash.<br /><br />No. Their characters are in motion. They're in the here and now. They might even be in the same room, but perhaps unaware of each other. A whisper of a plot gets introduced, a hint of conflict (maybe a business man finding out that will that left him everything was amended before the company owners death was changed. Uh oh), the author is showing, not telling, introducing a question in the readers mind, etc, etc, etc, and what does a crit group come back with? "No, this isn't right because the heroine and hero don't meet until page X." It's like you can have no "today, in the here and now" character action/introduction other than when the hero slams into the heroine and spills champagne all over her dress. No. Literally. That's it. Bam! Oops! First line of the story. We don't know anything about them other than he apparently doesn't watch where he's going.<br /><br />I mean how compelling can an opening be when you don't know anything about the characters? Okay, sure, we might find out there's sexual chemistry, but if you don't have any framework whatsoever for the hero OR heroine before they literally collide.... no framework for the story, no idea of the conflict, and the author throws them together on page 1, line 1... how is that interesting?<br /><br />I get the advice in this blog entry and I *totally* agree with it, but I think newbie writers - especially ones getting feedback from people who can't tell the difference between back story and narration or scene details (that patsy cline on the jukebox and those pool balls clinking) to set the scene -- are going to be mighty mighty confused for a while.<br /><br />And I probably slaughtered trying to explain what I'm trying to say. *sigh* :( Hopefully this reads as English to somebody. LOL. <br /><br />JTJulie Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880895598847092028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-74516733122303367292010-09-18T20:06:09.860-05:002010-09-18T20:06:09.860-05:00This post just went into my Favorites list. Today...This post just went into my Favorites list. Today I revised my first chapter, cutting words and moving backstory much later, in order to make my inciting incident begin in the first 400 words (it's not romance, so no meet to be found). Now I understand *why* I did all that work, and will go back and tweak it again. Thanks!Deb Salisbury, Magic Seeker and Mantua-Makerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01513482264195697450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-14218070780976886192010-09-18T19:43:56.039-05:002010-09-18T19:43:56.039-05:00Saw it, and filed the contents.
I may be wrong o...Saw it, and filed the contents. <br /><br />I may be wrong or slightly off, but I feel like this kind of plays into the show-don't-tell phenomenon. If you tell the readers all about your characters before they even speak, then you're totally selling them short. If you show readers all about your characters, it's an exploratory journey from start to finish.<br /><br />Still, sometimes I find myself focused too much on what I want to show about them instead of just writing it how I see it. I'm not sure how much awareness of what I'm writing when I'm still writing a first draft...Jessica Silvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405267450788581689noreply@blogger.com