tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post1111695432446839117..comments2023-09-05T12:51:25.656-05:00Comments on edittorrent: Sentence openings-- beyond wordsEdittorrenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-13734295113534551812009-08-26T05:58:31.564-05:002009-08-26T05:58:31.564-05:00This is so useful! I'm looking at my revisions...This is so useful! I'm looking at my revisions in an entirely different way. <br /><br />I think I want to marry you. All of you.Sylviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05925593802209715440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-86814883393961036142009-08-23T16:20:55.476-05:002009-08-23T16:20:55.476-05:00Jami, I like your suggestion, for I'd get rid ...Jami, I like your suggestion, for I'd get rid of the PPP and that's a good thing.<br /><br />Murphy, thanks for seconding the idea.<br /><br />Alicia, the idea of expanding on this one sentence is sending all kinds of ideas through my mind. For one thing, the character could decribe some of what she sees. I love writing description... but then I read warnings one shouldn't use too much of it, and 'clam up' so to speak.Petronellanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-80122291224561819532009-08-22T22:09:44.264-05:002009-08-22T22:09:44.264-05:00Hey P:
I was looking at this and Jami pretty much...Hey P:<br /><br />I was looking at this and Jami pretty much nailed it. So, I don't have much to add - only,<br />and I'm not sure what you're going for here, but maybe something like this would work:<br /><br />I sat up, looked around and to my surprise/horror/astonishment - I realized this was the dream bedroom I had described and indeed sketched, for Maisie the evening before.<br />Just my .02 Murphy!Riley Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15817930302085699222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-7449941580628044232009-08-22T18:01:40.220-05:002009-08-22T18:01:40.220-05:00Petronella, yes, that's a PPP.
It's a who...Petronella, yes, that's a PPP.<br /><br />It's a whole lot for one sentence, I'd say. It's a really PACKED sentence. I'd make it a whole paragraph. What made her sit up and look around? What did she see that made her think-- "Dream bedroom!" Then she remembers describing and sketching it for Maisie. Then her reaction -- what she makes of this. <br /><br />See, I tell you-- I'm terrible at summary! I make paragraphs where others make words. But this just does seem like a really important moment-- she wakes up in this bedroom she had sketched the night before-- presumably not the bedroom that she had gone to sleep in. This just doesn't seem to be the moment I'd rush through in a single sentence.<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-7513566891465287072009-08-22T17:17:27.586-05:002009-08-22T17:17:27.586-05:00Petronella,
Yep, that's an intro PPP. I had/...Petronella,<br /><br />Yep, that's an intro PPP. I had/have (and am still cleaning) tons of these in my WIP, so I've gotten lots of practice in cleaning them up. :)<br /><br />How about?:<br />When I sat up and looked around, I realized this was the dream bedroom I had described and sketched for Maisie the evening before.<br /><br />Hope this helps!<br />Jami G.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-10094490015182341432009-08-22T16:32:59.940-05:002009-08-22T16:32:59.940-05:00Thanks for the post so full of useful information....Thanks for the post so full of useful information.<br /><br />In the last couple of days I've started doing some revision work on a novel I set aside after doing the third draft. I haven't looked at it for at least three years.<br /><br />Anyway, I have found only one sentence starting with an 'ing' word... the only one in four chapters.<br /><br /><i>Sitting up and looking around, I realized this was the dream bedroom I had described and sketched for Maisie the evening before.</i><br /><br />One moment this seems perfectly right to me, but in the next moment I have my doubts. I'd never heard of ppps until I read the posts on them here. Do I have a double ppp in the sentence?Petronellanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-5874193543833741452009-08-22T12:21:34.140-05:002009-08-22T12:21:34.140-05:00There's a lot of information in this post. Th...There's a lot of information in this post. Thanks Alicia. I have been weeding this past week yet, reading this I think I could trim some more.;)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703292678697973295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-49038470843347001002009-08-22T12:20:13.088-05:002009-08-22T12:20:13.088-05:00This is absolutely fantastic. Just the sort of hel...This is absolutely fantastic. Just the sort of helpful post I was hoping you'd offer after the last one!Kathleen MacIverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02263212018219137277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-16365032009925080772009-08-22T11:41:54.613-05:002009-08-22T11:41:54.613-05:00Murph, no, it's a LOT of intro PPPs that feel ...Murph, no, it's a LOT of intro PPPs that feel amateur to me, not a few. I'm not kidding-- I get submissions where half or more of the sentences start that way. And I know they think it's great. But you can tell from all our investigation-- most published work doesn't use that technique, and there's a reason.<br /><br />But one PPP? Not a problem. However, if every sentence has meaning and power, I certainly will look more favorably on a submission.<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-24856196077872255032009-08-22T11:37:24.843-05:002009-08-22T11:37:24.843-05:00Alicia, you've got a gift. I looked at the st...Alicia, you've got a gift. I looked at the structure of that sentence (I like the Dolly Parton analogy, btw - really brings the point home doesn't it?) and thought to break it into two separate sentences. It never occurred to me to group the progression of the actions together. That's something I will hang on to while I go through my revisions - THANKS!<br />I would still like to know though, if you saw this in a submission...let’s say - it’s buried in a partial in or near the end of it - would this be grounds for a rejection of the MS? I’m still having a hard time getting my head around where the line is drawn. Because I think Deb and I had the same teacher 30 years ago!:) Don’t even get me started on my adjective problem. I was encouraged to include as many of those as I could work into a story and it seemed to be the charm during school. Yep, the more I included the higher my grades were - a real bummer now because I can’t restrain myself from throwing down a whole pile of them. I have to wait until I see a line in reviewer comments that says: No more than five - that’s all I’m allowing! Cut - cut - cut! And I cringe, cringe, cringe! ;)<br /><br />Jami:<br /><br />I see where you’re having trouble with that one. The simple answer would be to rearrange the actions but then you lose the emotion you’re going for - maybe if you qualified what that feeling was? <br /><br />Instead of:<br /><i>Hating how he’d made her feel, she hoped her knees wouldn’t buckle and betray her weakness.</i><br /><br />How about:<br /><i>She hated how he made her feel, so helpless and vulnerable at the moment , that she hoped her knees wouldn’t buckle and betray her weakness to him.</i><br />MurphyRiley Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15817930302085699222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-40104891295754625352009-08-22T10:56:33.420-05:002009-08-22T10:56:33.420-05:00Deb,
Yes! I'd actually learned that "tr...Deb,<br /><br />Yes! I'd actually learned that "trick" in a class as well. :) Granted, it was a high-school level class, but still... Between this and teachers telling you to use more adverbs and adjectives (and the lack of real grammar instruction in most schools), I really wonder about how writing is taught pre-college level.<br /><br />Jami G.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-23379411067814846092009-08-22T10:47:10.352-05:002009-08-22T10:47:10.352-05:00I'd like to kick the creative writing teacher ...I'd like to kick the creative writing teacher who told me that PPPs were a good way to vary the beginning of a sentence. But that was 30 years ago, so he's safely out of range. ;-)Deb Salisbury, Magic Seeker and Mantua-Makerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01513482264195697450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-36361880040859049632009-08-22T10:44:58.631-05:002009-08-22T10:44:58.631-05:00Thanks Alicia,
You got me--I do obsess over each ...Thanks Alicia,<br /><br />You got me--I do obsess over each word.<br /><br />Here's a before and after. The first one trips over itself. I didn't change the ending because the grandmother's spirit is the element I'd like to highlight. (If you didn't mean for me to copy a sentence here--apologies!)<br /><br />Crossing the threshold, a powerful force struck Julianne, as though she were entering a different time, one in which her grandmother’s indelible spirit lived on.<br /><br />Julianne maneuvered the threshold as though she entered a different time period, one in which her grandmother’s indelible spirit lived on.Joan Morahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03152990243138876941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-54012849358309675392009-08-22T10:44:21.916-05:002009-08-22T10:44:21.916-05:00Well, a friend of mine used to talk about "Do...Well, a friend of mine used to talk about "Dolly Parton sentences"-- top-heavy. :) That's when the introductory elements are a lot "heavier" or longer than the main clause. I think there's a purpose for that, a "feel" for that-- comic effect, for one (the anticlimax of the main clause can be humorous), and also maybe to convey a peltering, frantic action. <br /><br />But you are burying the main clause, and how important the main clause is in that context, I don't know. But by the time we get to the main clause (which is usually the most important action), we've gotten tangled up. Here's how I'd edit, and keep in mind I don't have the context, and also that I go with a trailing adjective phrase (careful), but for some reason, I felt like all the action in one sentence, and the conclusion in another for emphasis maybe:<br /><br />She moved quickly to steady her feet on the floor, careful to use these faltering steps to her advantage and increase the distance between them. All the while, she nervously kept an eye on his doubled(hyphen here, btw-- compound adjective before a noun)over profile.<br /><br />I was going with a simple "She" opening in the last sentence, but I think you're right that "while" is important as there IS simultaneity. It's just the sentence gets too complicated (for me) when you have three major elements/actions in one. So the physical action in one, and the perceptive (noticing) action in the last. A sentence by itself will mean, of course, that THAT is the essential thing in the paragraph. Don't know if it is.<br /><br />With long sentences, I try to read aloud, and if I can't get all the words out in one breath, I try to trim or break. The reader kind of instinctively might feel a sentence is too long if she senses she couldn't say it in one breath. (Faulkner would disagree, of course. :) <br /><br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-69094511087525455572009-08-22T10:43:56.213-05:002009-08-22T10:43:56.213-05:00Murphy,
I agree with you. Your rewrite would hav...Murphy,<br /><br />I agree with you. Your rewrite would have much less "flow" than the original.<br /><br />I posted my example up above, which is the first one I haven't been able to get rid of. No, I take that back. I know <i>how</i> it could be rewritten, but it sounded like it would change the message of the sentence to me. Maybe that's when they're okay? :)<br /><br />Jami G.<br />...Oh, and here's an insulated cushion for that hot seat. :)Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-34607110189603912462009-08-22T10:39:58.689-05:002009-08-22T10:39:58.689-05:00Or, I could have Jami rewrite it for me like this:...Or, I could have Jami rewrite it for me like this:<br /><br /><i>She moved quickly to steady her feet on the floor and nervously kept an eye on his doubled over profile, making sure that those faltering steps put distance between them.</i><br /><br />Thanks Jami!Riley Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15817930302085699222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-41288138278096972362009-08-22T10:33:48.598-05:002009-08-22T10:33:48.598-05:00Okay, I did tell you that when I start thinking - ...Okay, I did tell you that when I start thinking - it’s never good, right?:D<br /><br />So um, here’s a goodie:<br /><br /><i>Moving quickly to steady her feet on the floor, while at the same time making sure that those faltering steps increased the distance between them, she nervously kept an eye on his doubled over profile.</i><br /><br />Hmmm, my reasoning behind writing this sentence this way? Well, for starters, this is the third paragraph in a block of an action scene. When you read it back collectively it flows - but I do have to admit that if I took it out of that context I would want to rewrite it like:<br /><br /><i>She moved quickly to steady her feet on the floor. She was careful to use these faltering steps to her advantage and increase the distance between them while she nervously kept an eye on his doubled over profile.</i><br /><br />I have no better excuse other than to say - the action is fluid even though the positioning of the characters has changed - so I did want to get the shift in the physical changes in the scene without disrupting the forward motion of the action. Crap. I do these things without thinking about them - is this wrong? I mean do you always edit these out? It’s not like I can’t do so myself, but in the few - (there were only two beginning ppps in five chapter of my current WIP) so it isn’t like I dump them in with flagrant abandon or anything – it’s just that sometimes it seems to work with the rhythm.<br /> <br />Signed Murphy, who can’t seem to stay off the hot seat!;)Riley Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15817930302085699222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-74233201905623464432009-08-22T10:11:24.722-05:002009-08-22T10:11:24.722-05:00Alicia,
Thanks for clarifying that SI article. U...Alicia,<br /><br />Thanks for clarifying that SI article. Up above, you'd written: <i>Not an intro participial phrase in there. (Or a trailing one, for that matter.)</i> So that's why I was confused. :)<br /><br />Jami G.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-50907041177755557472009-08-22T10:08:18.707-05:002009-08-22T10:08:18.707-05:00And by the way, you guys, if while you're read...And by the way, you guys, if while you're reading over and revising your work, how about picking out a sentence you worked on and saying why you decided to order it this way? It doesn't have to be a conscious decision-- but looking back at it, why were you right that it would work this way?<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-10998771406826326682009-08-22T10:06:13.647-05:002009-08-22T10:06:13.647-05:00Jami, I thought I identified that as a participle....Jami, I thought I identified that as a participle. Maybe I didn't say phrase? But yes, it's a phrase-- I guess anything longer than a word is a phrase. :)<br /><br />The point is not to obsess, Joan, it's to write sentences that mean what you want to say. I will bet you most writers we love don't think about how they need to vary the length or opening of sentences... they just FEEL this sentence is different from that sentence, because it means something different or it's in a different position in the paragraph....<br /><br />But how to cultivate that FEEL? Hmm. I think it helps to read closely stories that you love, lingering on wonderful sentences, reading them over and over, and that will help incorporate that sentence structure into your arsenal. :)<br />AliciaEdittorrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295505709568570553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-87310954457397950502009-08-22T10:05:12.377-05:002009-08-22T10:05:12.377-05:00Alicia,
Okay, I found this sentence that has an o...Alicia,<br /><br />Okay, I found this sentence that has an opening *ing phrase. My first stupid question is: Is this a PPP? It seems like it is, but it "feels" different than the others I've been trying to fix. My second question is (assuming it <i>is</i> a PPP): How could I fix this without ruining the rhythm or impact of the sentence?<br /><i>Hating how he’d made her feel, she hoped her knees wouldn’t buckle and betray her weakness.</i><br /><br />Thanks!<br />Jami G.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-59294970346621461132009-08-22T09:29:52.160-05:002009-08-22T09:29:52.160-05:00Alicia,
In your SI example, the last sentence had...Alicia,<br /><br />In your SI example, the last sentence had a comma-separated clause with an *ing word:<br /><i>He kept it up as they twisted in the second, screaming all the way into blackness.</i><br />Is that "screaming..." clause <i>not</i> a PPP? And if so, what is it? (Sorry, I never learned these grammar terms in school. :) )<br /><br />Thanks!<br />Jami G.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-91362214416595013902009-08-22T09:00:30.058-05:002009-08-22T09:00:30.058-05:00Joan,
I hear you. And people wonder why I'm ...Joan,<br /><br />I hear you. And people wonder why I'm on my 30th (or so) round of revisions. :) No, it's not that I'm finding excuses to delay the rejection rounds - it's that I'm on that steep learning curve. Grrr. I just keep telling myself that the next book will be <i>so</i> much easier compared to this one. :)<br /><br />Jami G.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6824896765631412903.post-40060220204827654222009-08-22T05:19:21.793-05:002009-08-22T05:19:21.793-05:00Thank you for expanding on yesterday's post. N...Thank you for expanding on yesterday's post. Now I'm off to question every sentence in my WIP. Again.Joan Morahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03152990243138876941noreply@blogger.com